I think this mainly refers to continuity. If two people are, for example, having a conversation, one would expect the shots to both from the same side; if you set up two cameras on opposite sides, it would appear that the two subjects aren't actually facing each other if you cut from one to another as the dialogue changes.

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Break this rule and things can get very weird. Anyone who makes films needs to get this aspect of continuity firmly in thier minds. The camera must not cross the action axis without letting the audience 'see' how it has happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180_degree_rule



As for editing to music, well this is where those long hours editing come in - I dont have a particular talent for music vids so I just keep on plugging away until 'wham' there it is - you know when it works. I dont think there is any formula for something that is really an art.

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There's a reason why video magazines give "rules" like "dont go crossing the line".

Not everyone who watches videos is a geek. Most of the audience have no idea what it's like to make or edit a film. They have learnt a film "language" and videos which go too far away from this language are difficult to understand.
Also, a lot of what you perceive is subconscious. In the case of a cut "crossing the line" nobody consciously thinks "hang on, I don't understand what happened to the visuals there" but subconsciously the brain has to process the fact that someone has changed direction in a fraction of a second. This isn't difficult but it means that:
(a) whilst processing this, a part of the plot or conversation might be overlooked. Not a problem in a music video but could be a problem in a drama.
(b) it draws attention to the fact that this isn't real life. When watching a video you have a "suspension of disbelief". In a drama/thriller/feature you get drawn into the plot, the characters become real and you empathise with the situation. A "wrong" cut reminds you that it's just a film, and the viewer partially loses this "suspension of disbelief". In a music video a "bad" cut distracts the viewer from the visuals and the music.

That's why these conventions are important. When you're new to film/videomaking there's a tendency to say "well I understand it, what's the problem?". As time goes on you stop trying to show off, you stop shouting "look at me aren't I clever" and you concentrate more on the viewer and less on yourself. This is when you realise that these conventions (I hate the word "rules") are actually very, very valid.

these types of questions are exactly why i posted on here... a quite famous and successful media professor and director (who shall remain nameless) raised these questions recently, and he suggested there were 'rules' and i wanted to get the opinion of people who are at the heart of it all... actually doing it.

I am very critical of everything and especially my own work... however, none of what i have done so far looks or feels 'wrong', (- so does that mean it is right?? - rhetorical question )

So maybe i am getting there and not 'getting away with it', and as you said more experience will help.

enthusiasm and inspiration are not my downfall (as you have suggested) but maybe perfectionism is!?!

that is the other question to be raised... is there such a thing as 'perfection(ism)' when it comes to such a creative and subjective artform??

regards

Let me put it this way. If you were making a video for a few friends and were using it to gain experience or try out different techniques, I'd be applauding.
By accepting a commercial job you've put yourself into a totally different category, you're playing with the grown-ups now. If you went to any craftsman and asked him for advice you'd get a few tips to help your D-I-Y but he's not going to give away any of his hard-earned professional knowledge.

This forum is no different. Neither Irishmark, Turnmedia, any of the Marcs, or myself are going to give-away knowledge which is important for us to earn money. We're not going to help someone do "our" job for a pittance, making our market smaller and increasing our competition.
Your video does affect our market. When you do a video for a few thousand, it makes it difficult when we quote the same figure with another nought on the end. Most people know very little about the practicalities of video production and they often assume that the whole sum goes into our pockets, they also have difficulty understanding that ALL our time has to be paid, including preparation, researching, travel, set-up, post-production etc. etc. etc. and then say: "Well this Luisa does it for a tenth of your price, so you'll have to drop your quote if you want to get the job".

See what we're getting at?

It doesn't matter if your effort isn't up to par. Once a job is over, it's over. Rarely will a new videomaker get called in for a re-shoot. What happens is that the firm is disappointed and gets a bad impression of video production companies and, on the next gig, thinks "there's no point in getting a pro in, the last one wasn't all that brilliant." So a potential customer is lost.

I'm not "having a go" at you, just explaining why it's difficult to get "pro" information from those who know what they're talking about. It sounds very arrogant when I say it but it's really a form of self-defence. I can only justify high fees if I do a better job and there's no reason for me to give away tips and trade-secrets which I've taken years (and thousands of pounds) to learn, to someone who's going to make my job harder. You'll find that we're all willing to help with advice on marketting, costing, contracts and the thousand-and-one pitfalls which a new "pro" can fall into... But, as for doing the job... you'll have to learn that the hard way!

As for your acedemic... The only "rules" in videomaking are the laws of nature. Everything else is opinion. I don't know what he's directed but if he sticks to a "formula" and "rules" I doubt it will be that inspiring. On occasions when I've worked with brilliant directors and asked them "Why have you done this or that?" they've looked at me blankly and usually answered along the lines of "because it feels right". I've never had one quote a "rule" at me.

The "rules" he talks about are probably guides like "don't cross the axis" or "don't cut long-shot to long-shot" but these are "guides" or "conventions" and shouldn't be treated like the Ten Commandments otherwise you're restricting yourself unneccessarily.

Finally (If you're still here) You say " none of what i have done so far looks or feels 'wrong'". That's a bad sign. Nearly everything I do disappoints me because I can see where it could have been better. The more experience I get, the more 'wrong' things I see in my work. There are no quick and easy commandments for editing music videos but harsh self-criticism is (in my opinion) the most important requirement for any videomaker who wants to improve.


Edit: Finally: I can't see anywhere where I've suggested that "enthusiasm and inspiration " would be your downfall. In fact I emphasised Turnmedia's advice that "Enthusiasm and a love for music are what you need".

Wow

I find it absolutely despicable that you are judging me in this way – you have no idea what my background is or what my work is like

I wouldn’t usually bother to justify myself but I am sick of coming across stereotypical people in this industry…

I too have accumulated ‘hard-earned professional knowledge’ from running my own video production company for 6 years so some people might consider that makes me a professional in this industry (I acknoweldge that 6 years is not a lot of experience but for a 25 year old who also has a 3 year degree behind her – I would say it is a good start).

From running the business (which included every aspect of production: proposals, pitching, budgeting, marketing, planning, camerawork, cinematography, sound recording, editing, postproduction, DVD authoring, cover design, ete etc) I have faced all of the struggles u mentioned so there is honestly no need to preach to me about how hard it is when non-professionals undermine your work – because I know first hand.

i thought running the business would be a great way to get hands on experience whilst doing something i enjoy - and it was

Why do you have such a hard time allowing someone to branch out in a new direction?

Why not accept or at least offer an open ear/hand to an eager-to-develop person?

Going back to the sentiment that something either feels right or wrong - I was simply saying the edit certainly doesn’t feel wrong and so maybe I am being too harsh on myself… as I usually am.

I think it is totally unacceptable to say ‘It doesn't matter if your effort isn't up to par.’ I believe it should be as professional and entertaining as possible.

Needless to say I will never post back on this forum because of the arrogance and ignorance encountered – I hope it is justified

Best

L

Crikey ! That above is a bit harsh. The question you asked has been approached and pondered and quite a lot of helpful advice given.

The question you asked has no answer really, surely something you should appreciate with your knowledge of video production? Given that I really do think your respone is rather tart.

I should also point out that we get many many questions of this nature, big complex questions that appear to be looking for easy answers from expirienced people - it's like you are asking for a persons wisdom to be boiled down to one paragraph. It can come across as rather, er, dispicable.

I really do think there is some useful info in many of the answers above and I am suprised at your vitriol and queeny strop offing.

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www.zaskarfilms.com You tube channel 'zaskarfilms'
JVC DV5001e (big cam), Sony PC6E (tiny cam), Vinten pro5, PAG light, SM58, Sony ECM50, Sony C-76, 0.5x convertors for sony, Rode video mic, Vegas 7.

What is your problem? You've come onto this forum saying that you've done a few corporates, shorts and weddings. Then you ask for very basic advice on editing a music video. Three people experienced in the field you want to enter have given you advice but just because it's not the step-by-step guide that you were expecting, you throw a hissy-fit.
and do you actually read the answers you're given? I can't find anywhere a comment that "‘It doesn't matter if your effort isn't up to par". I can't find any suggestion that enthusiasm and inspiration are your downfall. In short you're quoting rubbish.

If you're 25, three years degree and have run a production company for 6 years you started uni at 16 then? Oh no, you were running a production company as a student. Big deal, we all did that mate. I suspect that you did a media studies course as opposed to a proper film school, otherwise you wouldn't have this negative attitude to experienced film and videomakers.

Read what Turnmedia, Mark W and I have actually written. All of it is relevant to what you want to do. We get dozens of semi-pros asking for us to sort out their productions (without payment) and we give advice which you could do well to heed. I suggest you actually read my last post, as opposed to throwing your toys out of the pram just because it wasn't what you expected.

Edit: Proper Production Companies also constantly take on jobs which they can't do themselves. They then sub-contract it to someone who can. This is something you should consider, rather than expecting a crash-course in music editing from this forum.

It's not unusual to convey an unintended 'tone' in a message, and certainly not unsual for members' opinions to clash. This is particulary prevalent within videoforums as frequently there really isn't a 'wrong' or 'right' answer, just somebody's (well informed) opinion. Our members are passionate about their subject and their work. So passionate that they donate their time and experience to help others on the forums. If you put this all together, you sometimes get a thread that steers away from where the original poster intended. The bottom line is that we're all here to help, but there's certain things we'd be foolish to give away for free (and the ultimate bottom line is that you can't buy talent).

The industry lends itself well to arrogance. You're as good as you say you are - and you better be as good as you say are if you want to keep the client. Someone told me a few months ago that they'll always hire someone who knows they're good over someone that thinks they are.

Should you have taken the job? Well, forgetting the emotive argument of price dumping, you should consider the risk involved to your reputation. Get the live gigs screwed up (a small part of the contract from what you say) and you potentially lose the client. Perhaps a more efficient way to work would be to outsource this particular part of the job to an experienced hand such as Turn Media. I'm sure you'd be able to expand your knowledge through this, and you'd both profit. It's a far more pragmatic approach.

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Your video does affect our market. When you do a video for a few thousand, it makes it difficult when we quote the same figure with another nought on the end.


Blimey, I knew I was out of my depth when I saw some of the credentials of people on this site but when I read that it took my breath away. I certainly don't want to be labelled as a cheapskate or as an amateur, although I am always keen to learn.

I have read the Gurus posts on this forum and the information he imparts is fantastic, I have also heard from Andy at Turn Media, and likewise some great information there as well.

What my partner and I are trying to do is get into the market of music video, we realise that in every genre of production there are various levels and we believe we have identified our potential "market". We also believe that with our experience in the actual performance/entertainment side of things we have a keen ear and eye for what we believe is ultimately good on DVD for the artist/talent.

We are pitching ourselves at the level of artist that can pay what we think is the going rate for our level of service.Once again then we are in the cloaked underworld of pricing.

We don't want to knowingly undercut any production company, but surely you must treat like for like...most of the people we have worked for to date are on shoestring budgets so thousands with an extra zero on the end is a non starter. If truth be told our typical production comes in around £1.5k (if I shouldn't be mentioning money can a mod remove please) and thats a 60 min concert, shot , edited and put on DVD.

If we should be charging more....please let us know....if you are interested you can check samples of our work looking at our web site. We used the analogy of what its like for us and others in the field doing gigs. Certainly Girls Aloud can probably afford the 10's of thousands it costs to make a DVD, but when we're shooting bands that maybe only clear £500 at their gigs, we're pitching at rthe right level.

If anyone can give me a good indication of how to price our productions, please feel free, we have our own schedule and using that we can price everything from a 5 min shoot up to the 90 min gig.

Hope Im not saying the wrong thing here, but forums are for discussion and debate....and this is still the best forum I've found to date!

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