Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: Filming shows in 4K and cropping

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Surrey, UK
    Posts
    11,030
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Filming shows in 4K and cropping

    I am receiving an increasing number of requests to film school productions and produce DVDs,

    Typically I film two performances, both with two identical cameras (Canon XF100) one at the back capturing the whole stage and one left or right getting close ups. This means for any given scene I have two wide angles, one CU left and one CU right.

    Typically I will use only one night’s performance for each scene although I might use any of the four video tracks in musical numbers where they are performing to a recorded backing track as the tempo will be the same. Filming in HD means I have a little flexibility for re-framing in post.

    However, as you can imagine this takes rather a long time to edit and I’m looking at ways of streamlining this part of the process.

    I know of at least one guy (whom I've contacted and from whom I'm awaiting a reply) who shoots the whole thing in 4K wide then simply crops for close up, given that the end product is going to be in Standard Definition (DVD) there’s quite a bit of leeway here.

    The advantages as I see it are:
    1. There’s no need to sync video in post (although this is trivial and I’d have a separate audio which would need syncing anyway)
    2. If action is switching between stage left and stage right there’s no chance of missing it.
    3. There is no risk of zooming in too close only to have the action move out of frame as framing is achieved in post.
    4. There is no risk of zooming in too late as framing is achieved in post.

    There are two possible disadvantages that I can think of
    1. All shots are from the same angle (but is this really noticeable if you ar cutting between wide and CU?)
    2. Focus: If you focus on the back of the stage a character in the centre front might be soft, similarly if you focus for a centre front character, the characters to the rear or left or right of the stage might be soft.

    I’d be interested in your thoughts on these issues and anything else you can think of - especially if you've experience of filming shows.

    Incidentally, the camera I have my eyes on is a Panasonic HC-X1 which is a UX180 without the SDI or Timecode. With a 1in MOS sensor I hope its DoF isn’t so great as to give me focus problems in this situation, yet it is hopefully big enough to deal with low light better than my XF100.
    Last edited by TimStannard; 03-05-2018 at 10:27 PM.
    Tim

  2. #2

    Default

    Jut some ideas:

    I recently tried this trick of shooting 4k and zooming in post for a talking heads video with 2 subjects. I shot with a single camera wide, with the intention of zooming in to each individual in the edit room.

    Results were mixed. While it is great to have this capability, it feels pretty weird to switch from crystal clear 4k to 1080 from one shot to the next for 2 reasons:

    1. Resolution difference. I missed my focus by a bit, which was inconspicuous at 4k but noticeable when zoomed to 1080. Also the overall detail looked much better at 4k. Keep in mind I was exporting to 1080 for web consumption, so in theory I was just going down from 4k to the native format (1080), but the difference is noticeable with footage coming from my FZ2500. I ended up dialing back the zoom so the quality would look more similar. So for me zooming all the way to 1080 (2X zoom) just didn’t work out for this project.

    2. To my eye there’s something a bit off about using a crop instead of a shot framed just so. When I shoot with 2 cameras one stays wide and the other one zooms from a different angle, but when you zoom into the same 4k shot you are coming from the same angle and it feels like the production is missing some dynamism.

    Overall I will continue to shoot 4k thinking of the potential to zoom, but if I had my choice (and I cared about quality of the project) I would rather shoot with 2 cameras any day.

    Notes on technical quality:
    The FZ2500 crops the sensor at 4k, so it loses sensor detail by using something like 20% less of the 1-inch type (16mm) sensor. Your results with a more pro camera may vary. I’m also shooting 4:2:0 8 bits. It would be a different story shooting 4:2:2 with something like a GH5.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Surrey, UK
    Posts
    11,030
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Thanks jochicago. Useful confirmation of my suspicions. I had similar experiences of the difference in look when cropping from HD to SD.
    I really would like to take my own advice and hire one for a day, but I can't find anywhere I can do this.
    Tim

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,539

    Default

    I see a pair of drones hovering around the room during the performance - maybe add some diary room footage afterwards (“why were you pulling little Sally’s hair during her big solo?”, etc)

  5. #5

    Default

    Another vote for introducing multiple drones to the production.

    Tim, are you opposed to trying a GH5 rental (or is that what you meant by your comment)? I would be curious to know how you get on with it.

    The specs are ridiculous. You can shoot this in 4/3" instead of the 16mm sensor, at 4:2:2 10 bits straight to the SD memory card. Should go a long distance in letting you crop to 1080 with minimal loss of quality.
    Last edited by jochicago; 03-06-2018 at 04:36 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Surrey, UK
    Posts
    11,030
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zamiotana View Post
    I see a pair of drones hovering around the room during the performance
    Schools have rule against that sort of thing And if you'd seen my driving you'd appreciate why me flying a drone is a bad idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by zamiotana View Post
    - maybe add some diary room footage afterwards (“why were you pulling little Sally’s hair during her big solo?”, etc)
    I do that already. This is the "added value" stuff that parents don't get on their iPhones.
    Tim

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Surrey, UK
    Posts
    11,030
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jochicago View Post
    Tim, are you opposed to trying a GH5 rental (or is that what you meant by your comment)? I would be curious to know how you get on with it.
    Hiring GH5 wouldn't be much of a problem - it's just the X1 no-one seems to have.
    I have a friend with one who could shoot with me anyway if I wanted to see the results.
    I'd also be quite curious about how I'd get on with a GH5 and I'm sure I'd love one for my more creative film making, but I think for event filming (at least by me) the camcorder format is preferable.

    1. 4/3 sensor is actually a disadvantage having a shallower depth of field. Ideally what I need here is something where the whole stage is as much in focus as possible - the opposite of "glamour" close-ups. BTW the HC-X1 has a 1" sensor which seems to me a good compromise between light gathering and shallow DoF
    2. Whilst I'd like to be able to "set and forget" the camera shooting wide, in practice light is constantly changing and I like the immediate access of buttons. I suppose you could argue this is simply a case of getting used to where things are in the menu, but again when I see my friend with the GH5 shooting at our club, he seems to spend more time trying to remember where things are in the menu than actually shooting.
    3. Perhaps not significant for filming the event itself as I tend to use a separate device(s) for audio recording, the lack of XLRs would certainly be a disadvantage when doing cast interviews for example. Yes, I know one can get adapters, but I used to use a JuicedLink (like a BeachTek) preamp in the days when I shot on my SD camera and it's just a bit more faff I can do without (more stuff to connect, more batteries to fail)
    4. And perhaps the biggest drawback - once I go down that route, I know I'll keep convincing myself I need more "stuff" - primarily lenses.

    As I've said on this forum many times, I'm not really a cameraman and, certainly for this sort of application, the closer I can get to point and shoot, the better, so long as I have overall control.

    With a "fixed lens" camcorder, I'm pretty much set for most shooting.
    Tim

  8. #8

    Default

    Sadly, all solid points.

    I’d like to say that you get the hang of it quickly and the buttons are all easily accessible, but these things have so many bells and whistles that even if the camera is designed for video, there’s still fair amount of fiddling required to do anything.

    Case in point: I bought the FZ2500 last year in preparation for shooting an education event. Got it a month early to get used to the controls. At the event I also shot with my trusty Vixia camcorder. Once I get to the editing room, guess which footage has better exposure and uninterrupted sequences?

    I was hoping you’d try the GH5, then report back here that it went terrific, all shots came out perfect and it was a dream to handle.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Surrey, UK
    Posts
    11,030
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jochicago View Post
    I was hoping you’d try the GH5, then report back here that it went terrific, all shots came out perfect and it was a dream to handle.
    Someone (a different friend) has just sent me some 4K footage from a GH5 of a show which she filmed with the purpose of cropping to HD! I'll let you know....
    Tim

  10. Default

    I tend to shoot all my interview footage in 4k with delivery in HD as its great to be able to punch in when you need to make a cut. The only issue you may find in low light performances and having to shoot wide open is making sure your focus is bang on. Cropping in will reveal any mistakes! Like you say Tim, there is a lot to say for shooting with multiple cameras allowing for different views and you have the safety of having some redundancy if one cam goes down. Extra work in post though.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Slide Shows - am I on the right track...
    By rutjosnabet in forum Sony Vegas video editing apps
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 05-12-2014, 09:40 AM
  2. Vegas 9 Pro only shows FX Presets
    By Equalizer700 in forum Sony Vegas video editing apps
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-17-2012, 08:39 PM
  3. What are u think about these two shows?
    By alkoko111 in forum Adobe Premiere, Premiere Elements, and After Effects
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-31-2006, 09:57 PM
  4. Newest person here...and it shows.
    By LivingFlame in forum Hardware Problems
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-07-2004, 11:13 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •