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Thread: Shoot & Edit - Costing

  1. #21
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    Just so you know it's not just the three of you discussing, I'm thoroughly enjoying and benefiting from this discussion. This is exactly the sort of thin Marc set this forum up for, and exactly why these sorts of discussions should not be taken to personal emails/messages.
    Tim

  2. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jochicago View Post
    Happy to exchange ideas with fellow video enthusiasts

    I run a full service web dev shop, so I can share experience with handling clients and projects, but our work in video and photography is limited as it is not our focus. Our video work is mostly very boring corporate stuff (interviews, education seminars), so not much to share.

    Re: music video
    Yeah, it is on them. You are trying to help them out and they know you are just getting started. Donít let the situation sour you. Plus the label is out of line to ask for your footage without offering money, and your friend is out of line for not sticking up for you on this one. I would just say to your friend that you are sorry it didnít work out but you feel at this stage that the situation wonít get better so you canít work on this video any more and you have to move on to other projects. If the label feels the footage is usable, they can make you an offer for it and edit on their own (I would take any cash offer just to move on and keep the footage alive - it is all a learning experience).

    BTW, I feel that your footage is pretty solid. They would be silly not to make an offer for it and take it to an editor whose style they are familiar with. And I wouldnít feel bad about this either, because you shot good footage and if it makes it into a pro-edited video, this goes into your portfolio as a win and the final video should be pretty good.

    Re: 25 interviews
    I personally donít like this project from the looks of it. I would just recommend that you donít go for something that makes you too uncomfortable.

    I think you are at a stage in your video career that you would be best suited for a few more comfortable productions that you can ace. Thereís no need to keep putting yourself in complex scenarios that you havenít experienced before and end up hitting more walls. I would focus on seeking more opportunities that feel more comfortable until you start getting some wins under your belt. I don't know what's 'a good project' for you, but I know that shooting 25 interviews at different locations is probably not it. Full feature documentaries are made with far less.
    Wow that sounds interesting. How did you initially get into that?
    Something that you may know the answer to, but does having a website to showcase your photography/video work help to bring in new clients? I have a basic site setup via word press, which I need to complete when I have some time. But I am just trying to think outside of the box, in terms of how I can attract the sort of clients who are willing to pay for my services in the long run.

    Re: Music Video.
    Thanks for the kind words about my footage. Means a lot. I have gone over it with a fine tooth comb, and looking forward to shooting another one, and implementing things to continue to improve.
    As you said, I am trying to not let it get to me too much. I tried to come to some form of compromise with the label i.e. I said I was happy to re-edit or re-shoot, but I would need some form of payment, as I had already spent countless hours on production and post production. But they simply refused and were only willing to take the original rushes and have them re edited by their in-house team.

    Maybe its a ego thing, but with it being my first music video, I didn't feel comfortable with them doing this. Further more I really doubt they would have even credited me for the footage, based on how unprofessional thay had been towards me. Just my opinion.

    My friend - the artist - about a month later, contacted me and said that maybe I should just put the video out on my own personal youtube page, as the label would not be in a position to ask me to remove it, as they didn't contribute towards it, in any shape or form. However, I was unsure whether that was the best thing to do...i.e. I own the rights to the footage I assume, but could their be any potential legal comebacks?
    I am not too sure how they operate business wise, but they are a charity, who happen to have a music label/roster within their company.

    Re: 25 interviews.
    Totally agree. Its giving me a headache already and I haven't even shot anything. I am going tospeak to the client this weekend. If we can't come to an agreement, I think I am going to just say thanks, but no thanks. I will keep you posted.
    Last edited by Cruz; 03-23-2018 at 09:10 AM.

  3. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruz View Post
    Wow that sounds interesting. How did you initially get into that?
    Something that you may know the answer to, but does having a website to showcase your photography/video work help to bring in new clients? I have a basic site setup via word press, which I need to complete when I have some time. But I am just trying to think outside of the box, in terms of how I can attract the sort of clients who are willing to pay for my services in the long run.
    I know you asked jochicago this question, but here is the basic explanation i think he would give as well.
    Having a website is important as a creator (filmmaker / photographer), it's where clients will go to to check out your work and verify your legitimacy as well, but it is mostly useless if no one knows that your website exists. In other terms - no one will find it randomly among the millions of websites out there without proper marketing.
    So, having a decent website is just one side of the coin - you need to advertise your website and yourself to redirect potential customers to said website.

    I would recommend building a decent wordpress site or if you can spare some monthly $$, then definitely use Squarespace. Trust me... updating Wordpress + Theme regularly is such a pain in the a** whereas with Squarespace you don't have to think about any of that. I actually plan to swap from Wordpress to Squarespace myself very soon.

    But as i said - the website, where you can showcase your portfolio is only useful if you manage to attract clients to it and for that reason you will need to do some sort of promotion to build up some trafic.
    Obviously you can use your instagram or facebook page for the same purpose as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cruz View Post
    My friend - the artist - about a month later, contacted me and said that maybe I should just put the video out on my own personal youtube page, as the label would not be in a position to ask me to remove it, as they didn't contribute towards it, in any shape or form. However, I was unsure whether that was the best thing to do...i.e. I own the rights to the footage I assume, but could their be any potential legal comebacks?
    I am not too sure how they operate business wise, but they are a charity, who happen to have a music label/roster within their company.
    I would not do that if i were you.
    If the artist is signed under a music label, then he does not own his own tracks - the label does! That's the case with most small time artists when they sign a contract. I am not sure if he knows or understands his contract with the label, but i don't believe for a second that the label would sign an unknown artist and not take the master rights for any songs he makes while under contract.
    So if you would post a music video from that artist, then - yeah... you own the video footage rights (unless you sell the footage), but the label owns the music rights! So your music video will be flagged for copyright violation based on the actual music in it.

    And seeing as the label has already shown an aggressive attitude toward you - i would not add more "gasoline to the fire" with a potential copyright dispute!

  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TimStannard View Post
    Just so you know it's not just the three of you discussing, I'm thoroughly enjoying and benefiting from this discussion. This is exactly the sort of thin Marc set this forum up for, and exactly why these sorts of discussions should not be taken to personal emails/messages.
    I completely agree!

    Btw - jump in!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RL_Sensei View Post
    I completely agree!

    Btw - jump in!
    I'm never reluctant to share my opinions, but I'm not earning a living from video so any contribution from me to this thread would be speculation which is no use to anyone
    Tim

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruz View Post
    Wow that sounds interesting. How did you initially get into that?
    How I got into web development? I kind-of always have been. I've been writing code for fun since I was 12. By my mid teens the internet started taking hold and I was selling my first couple of HTML websites. Then I went to college for software, design, advertising, while working doing web stuff as gigs and also in the corporate world. My passion is in using technology to achieve business goals and deliver a message. These days that includes video because that's how people want to consume content, but video production is something I'm still learning every day.


    RE: having a website to showcase your photography/video work help to bring in new clients
    I'm going to mirror what's been said by RL_Sensei. There are many ways to attract business, but in my experience the website is there to help you start a conversation, not to draw leads. Most of the time your business opportunities in the video world are going to come from real life contacts. They definitely want to see a professional looking website to get a sense for what you do and your quality, but the website alone is only a tool.

    RE: How to get gigs when starting out
    Again, many ways to go about it. But in my experience and that of the people I admire, the best way to start is to get busy and stay busy doing stuff that you can be passionate about and learn from. Some of the best people in any creative industry started as unpaid interns or giving away their work just to learn and stay busy. I personally gravitated towards doing non-profit work for free during my earlier years. I figured if someone's getting my work for free, it might as well be my contribution to a good cause. And I can promise you, the running joke I have with my partner is that there was a time (first few months of our business) that we couldn't give away a free website to a nonprofit. They looked at our value proposition and chose to pay someone else rather than take our free offer. The first few projects are rough but you have to roll with the punches and take some bruises in order to learn, get good, develop good processes, learn to handle clients, etc.

    My best advice is: get out there and do stuff ALL THE TIME. I know a very smart photographer that never gets work. This person read somewhere and decided that work has to be compensated fairly or you are devaluing yourself, and without connections nor a pool of clients this photographer works only a bit every other month and wonders about getting more gigs. Don't be this person. Do whatever you need to do to be out all the time doing all sorts of interesting work. Of course you want to get paid, but making connections, building a portfolio, learning your trade, all this stuff is valuable and just as important as getting paid. Try your best to get paid, but IMO err on the side of working more often and making a great impression on as many people as possible.


    RE: First music video
    While I understand your points, hopefully my last paragraph gives away my way of thinking. Projects on their own mean very little. You are building a body of work and it will eventually be extensive.This video can die in a drawer, or it can be published as is, or maybe edited more. It doesn't matter. You nurture this project as far as you can and move on to the next one. I wouldn't put too much emotional attachment but would try to take it as far as it will go within reason. For me, if that means that someone else edits and finishes it, that's fine. And the real credit for the footage is yours, nobody can take that from you. If the video makes it to MTV, you can always point and say "that's my footage". It doesn't matter if the label writes down your name somewhere on the album. You can show that footage to people interested in your work. And if the video is edited well, that only makes you look better.

    How did the other thing go?

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RL_Sensei View Post
    I know you asked jochicago this question, but here is the basic explanation i think he would give as well.
    Having a website is important as a creator (filmmaker / photographer), it's where clients will go to to check out your work and verify your legitimacy as well, but it is mostly useless if no one knows that your website exists. In other terms - no one will find it randomly among the millions of websites out there without proper marketing.
    So, having a decent website is just one side of the coin - you need to advertise your website and yourself to redirect potential customers to said website.

    I would recommend building a decent wordpress site or if you can spare some monthly $$, then definitely use Squarespace. Trust me... updating Wordpress + Theme regularly is such a pain in the a** whereas with Squarespace you don't have to think about any of that. I actually plan to swap from Wordpress to Squarespace myself very soon.

    But as i said - the website, where you can showcase your portfolio is only useful if you manage to attract clients to it and for that reason you will need to do some sort of promotion to build up some trafic.
    Obviously you can use your instagram or facebook page for the same purpose as well.




    I would not do that if i were you.
    If the artist is signed under a music label, then he does not own his own tracks - the label does! That's the case with most small time artists when they sign a contract. I am not sure if he knows or understands his contract with the label, but i don't believe for a second that the label would sign an unknown artist and not take the master rights for any songs he makes while under contract.
    So if you would post a music video from that artist, then - yeah... you own the video footage rights (unless you sell the footage), but the label owns the music rights! So your music video will be flagged for copyright violation based on the actual music in it.

    And seeing as the label has already shown an aggressive attitude toward you - i would not add more "gasoline to the fire" with a potential copyright dispute!
    Thanks. I have done some affiliate marketing in the past - mainly working with paid desk top traffic - so I'll get on the case to try and find a way of driving some clients to my sight once its finished.
    My main issue with the site currently is creating various pages which link into one another. For Example, if someone clicks on the home page, then creating links to another page i.e. photos, videos, instagram etc.
    How does squarespace work if you already have wordpress? Can they work alongside each other, or dyou have to pick one?

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jochicago View Post
    How I got into web development? I kind-of always have been. I've been writing code for fun since I was 12. By my mid teens the internet started taking hold and I was selling my first couple of HTML websites. Then I went to college for software, design, advertising, while working doing web stuff as gigs and also in the corporate world. My passion is in using technology to achieve business goals and deliver a message. These days that includes video because that's how people want to consume content, but video production is something I'm still learning every day.


    RE: having a website to showcase your photography/video work help to bring in new clients
    I'm going to mirror what's been said by RL_Sensei. There are many ways to attract business, but in my experience the website is there to help you start a conversation, not to draw leads. Most of the time your business opportunities in the video world are going to come from real life contacts. They definitely want to see a professional looking website to get a sense for what you do and your quality, but the website alone is only a tool.

    RE: How to get gigs when starting out
    Again, many ways to go about it. But in my experience and that of the people I admire, the best way to start is to get busy and stay busy doing stuff that you can be passionate about and learn from. Some of the best people in any creative industry started as unpaid interns or giving away their work just to learn and stay busy. I personally gravitated towards doing non-profit work for free during my earlier years. I figured if someone's getting my work for free, it might as well be my contribution to a good cause. And I can promise you, the running joke I have with my partner is that there was a time (first few months of our business) that we couldn't give away a free website to a nonprofit. They looked at our value proposition and chose to pay someone else rather than take our free offer. The first few projects are rough but you have to roll with the punches and take some bruises in order to learn, get good, develop good processes, learn to handle clients, etc.

    My best advice is: get out there and do stuff ALL THE TIME. I know a very smart photographer that never gets work. This person read somewhere and decided that work has to be compensated fairly or you are devaluing yourself, and without connections nor a pool of clients this photographer works only a bit every other month and wonders about getting more gigs. Don't be this person. Do whatever you need to do to be out all the time doing all sorts of interesting work. Of course you want to get paid, but making connections, building a portfolio, learning your trade, all this stuff is valuable and just as important as getting paid. Try your best to get paid, but IMO err on the side of working more often and making a great impression on as many people as possible.


    RE: First music video
    While I understand your points, hopefully my last paragraph gives away my way of thinking. Projects on their own mean very little. You are building a body of work and it will eventually be extensive.This video can die in a drawer, or it can be published as is, or maybe edited more. It doesn't matter. You nurture this project as far as you can and move on to the next one. I wouldn't put too much emotional attachment but would try to take it as far as it will go within reason. For me, if that means that someone else edits and finishes it, that's fine. And the real credit for the footage is yours, nobody can take that from you. If the video makes it to MTV, you can always point and say "that's my footage". It doesn't matter if the label writes down your name somewhere on the album. You can show that footage to people interested in your work. And if the video is edited well, that only makes you look better.

    How did the other thing go?
    All taken on board
    In all honesty, I would be happy to do free work - which I'm passionate about - to build up my reel and portfolio. More importantly, I am lucky, and thankful to be in position, which has enabled me to invest in some great equipment over the past couple of years. I would much rather get out there, and start shooting to learn and master my craft, opposed to my gear sat gathering dust in my storage cupboard.

    Re: The smart photographer - I used to shoot with a dude, who was exactly like this. I think overtime, he has got me in a very similar mindset. However, after the input I have got from you and others on the site, I think its time to break the cycle.

    Re: Most recent gig, I still have not managed to sit and have a discussion with the client - The both of us have been too busy lately. I need to speak to him though, to try and come to some form of compromise, instead of the 25 plus mini shoots at various locations.

    On a positive note, I started shooting another music video a few days ago. I recently bought a new camera, and was really excited to test it out, and continue to practice my colour grading skills.
    The Artist was honest from the outset in saying that his budget was limited - which I really appreciated - and we agreed to a fee.
    But at this point - as we discussed above - I am just happy to be getting some work to enjoy and hone my skills.

    I will keep you posted

  9. Default

    Hi guys,
    I hooe you're all well. Just a quick update.

    So the music artist decided he wanted to release the video I shot in the in the end. The label/company he works for realised that they could not really stop him from doing this, as there were no legally binding contracts etc.
    Anyway, as you guys suggested, lesson learnt and experience gained. On to the next project .
    Here is a very short write up someone did on it:
    http://kcmix.com/award-winning-rappe...elease-mirror/

  10. Default

    Pretty solid for your first video. Good outcome as well. Sounds like the artist and his community are happy with the work.

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