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Thread: 16fps old movie to 25fps video

  1. #1
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    Default 16fps old movie to 25fps video

    Hello

    I have been scanning some old Regular 8 movie film which was probably recorded at about 16fps as when played back at that speed, movement appears reasonably natural.

    The scans are saved as a sequence of individual frames and each frame is 1920x1080 with black bars at the side to adjust for the 4:3 image.

    Video (PAL) runs at 25fps so if I simply play the movie, everything looks speeded up.

    Presumably I need to increase my number of frames from 16 to 25 by "inserting" some extra frames.

    How can I best accomplish this?

    I am a bit daunted by virtual dub and avisynth and have both Sony Vegas 12 and Pinnacle Studio 17. I am aware of Twixtor but do not know how to use it.

    One problem I did have when "playing around" to find a solution was jerky movement in pans.

    Some films are in poor condition so I also need to crop some images and make other adjustments to levels and sharpness but that is another story.... Getting a sensible workflow for frame speed will do for now.

    Many thanks for your advice

    Les

  2. #2

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    I'm pretty sure you can export your clips to 16fps files in Sony Vegas. I even believe it can re-sample for example 16fps to 24fps. Have you tried Googling for a tutorial? I didn't watch this video to the end but by what I saw and read it seems to illustrate what you have been trying:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgdXZECRYgg
    The cats are watching us...

  3. #3

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    Go to the project properties setting and set that to 16 frames per second. You will have to set the correct image length by going to Options/preferences on the editing tab set the "New still image length to 0.05 this should be about right to make every image the right length. (I'm rubbish at maths so that figure could be wrong).
    Then import all the images. Providing they are in the right order this should now play at a natural speed.
    One you are happy with the "look of the images" you can export to a 1080p 25fps format.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by dadioles View Post

    Presumably I need to increase my number of frames from 16 to 25 by "inserting" some extra frames.

    How can I best accomplish this?

    I am a bit daunted by virtual dub and avisynth and have both Sony Vegas 12 and Pinnacle Studio 17. I am aware of Twixtor but do not know how to use it.

    One problem I did have when "playing around" to find a solution was jerky movement in pans.
    As you have already discovered, simply introducing extra frames to 'up' the frame rate - while retaining the original speed - will result in jerky motion.
    Programs like Twixtor can overcome this by introducing 'optical flow' techniques into the processing, to create these 'extra' frames in a more sophisticated way... The results can produce a much smoother copy of your 16 fps film at 25 fps. Even 'smoother' results come from choosing a higher frame rate of course....I prefer 50 fps personally.

    Twixtor is available as a plug in for Vegas, AFAIK, and can give excellent results. It does however have 2 disadvantages -

    1 - it has quite a steep learning curve and
    2 - It is expensive!

    You can get very similar results using free software - MVTools. But that does involve AviSynth, which also has quite a steep 'learning curve' - as you have already mentioned!

    I was challenged by my 'non-techie' brother to produce some notes relating to the use of MVTools for creating 'slo-mo', and most of those notes still apply when using the same tools for smooth frame rate changes... you simply use a much simpler script instead of the 'slo-mo' script shown in the notes.

    (The attached script below is an example of what you'd need to use...As you can see there's not much to the actual script -- it's the setting up that's the pain!)

    The notes can be found here: www.slomo.jp137.com

    As I say, they were written for a non-tech person, so that's the reason for the very simple 'left click here' - 'right click there' type of instructions..... hope that's not too distracting!


    EDIT: To illustrate the kind of result you might expect using MVTools, I've posted a couple of short clips, with reference to your 'jerky with pans' comments. ...Each clip is less than 20MB

    The first clip is at 16fps You can find that: HERE

    Running that 16fps clip through MVTools - using a script like the one attached - gives the result: HERE

    There is one difference. I've changed the numerator value from 25 to 50, which creates a clip at 50fps rather than 25. Primarily to illustrate that MVTools creates all new interpolated frames. There are no repeated frames, which makes everything look smoother...
    (You can pick any value you like for the numerator value of course.... I find 50 smoother than 25fps...)

    You would expect similar results using Twixtor..... but it's just a wee bit more expensive!...
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by rogs; 11-09-2016 at 12:33 AM.

  5. #5
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    Many thanks for your responses.
    I am using the new Retroscan Universal by MovieStuff and after a few teething problems, me getting familiar with the equipment mostly, it is producing excellent frame scans of my old 8mm movie film.
    Scanning, as it turns out, is the easy bit! I have played around with video editing on and off for 30 years but after a long break away from it the learning curve is back with me once more.
    Following your advice I shall have a bit of a play and try the techniques suggested.
    Last night I could not sleep so spent 2am until 5am quietly experimenting and made real progress.
    I will report back with my conclusions and work flow. Thanks again.

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