Got beaten to it by an amateur

**markjl** · 07-01-2011, 12:51 PM

Well its not a brag and I'm not a highly experienced cineaste, however ... the local fête (5000 people, 40th anniversary) chose an amateur enthusiast instead (of me). The reason is cost mainly (500€ instead of 2000€). I just to moan and get sympathy, but I'm just wondering whether I'm completely out of the ball park (2 days research, 2 days filming) and 10 days editing (maybe a bit much?)

How do you go about making estimates, proposals and the like? Do you go for weddings and fetes, festivals, concerts? and what do you do in the winter?

Read u soon ...

**Midnight Blue** · 07-01-2011, 01:30 PM

Seems like a reasonable quote to me. It will be interesting to see what product they get in the end. You usually get what you pay for.

**TimStannard** · 07-01-2011, 03:21 PM

And it might be very good. We amateurs have access to the same equipment as you professionals. What we don't have is the obligation to complete the work in a reasonable time in order to put bread on the table. Therefore your enthusiastic amateur might spend many, many more times the time you would spend on the project. He might even be as skilled or even better skiller than you as a cameraman and editor.

The differences are (1) there will (probably) be no contract and therefore no comeback if he fails to produce. (2) he most likely will not be insured and so the client will have to try to sue him personally for any damage/injury he causes.

Your quote seemed perfectly reasonable to me. I wouldn't consider revising it.

**Midnight Blue** · 07-01-2011, 05:05 PM

We amateurs have access to the same equipment as you professionals

But not always the collateral to actually have it.

**ajm** · 07-01-2011, 06:57 PM

I understand what your going through markjl. Always happens to me.

We may as well pack it all in and get a proper paying job with a salary.

If it does not pick up by the end of the year I may just do that.

Long time since I`ve had a guaranteed monthly paycheck.

Could do any brain dead job for the minimum wage and get some tax credits on top. Could earn around 250 week.
Better still become a binman 350 week.

Will probably earn more than I`ve done over the past 2 years.

It seems that creatives are in the worst paid jobs at the moment and no one values it.

When i get a call for a job (probably about 1 every 3 months) and thats with marketing in all types of sectors their first question is "how much will it cost" not can i see your work.

Most companies now want videos done in-house on the cheap by a geek employee who likes to play around in his spare time. Does not matter if its professionaly put together, all they want is the message to get across and then posted on their site or crappy youtube.

They will buy a cheap 150 camcorder and use some free editing software of the web or better still purchase the FCP 10 software if their mac based now for 190 pounds.
Apple have reduced their software prices as have Avid.
This either proves they are struggling or the market is oversaturated with so called video experts who now have the market monopoly on the prices they will pay.

More people are starting their one man band video companies.
Clients are now playing one against the other because they know there is so many of us in the business to get the best deal.
Ever video guy wants the business so they will bid the lowest rate and so on.
I hear the sentence alot that not all video producers will play the lowest bid game but in reality they do...I know!

Have you checked the site "people per hour"-- This will prove my point.

Funny enough i lost a job today due to a school wanting to film their show (which was booked 5 months ago)but at the last minute copyright issues from the writers put a stop to it. Made 150 deposit but also lost 1000.00 in orders. Its disheartning.

-----
In this business you can never plan your future.
You never know what or when work is coming in.
Most jobs are one offs then you have to look again for more work.
Never any solid guaranteed contracts.
No guarnteed salary.... Shall I go on?
-----

Most video guys I know now do the business part time and get a proper job to pay the bills.

I could do that then class myself as an amateur and not the professional i actually am.

I think i will be doing the same.

**Thurston Lang** · 07-01-2011, 09:42 PM

Ha ha,

we just had a query from someone within a local health authority...
They wanted "30 - 33 short films" of short scenarios....
"we already have a writer"...they chirp.... "we have approached a few production companies and we are looking at cost"
"please give a quote including a breakdown of crew and equipment you would use - we are looking for top quality but also at price"

...The budget?

£1500.... "Quite a few companies have quoted around this price"

.....I politely refused the offer to meet....

**Z Cheema** · 07-01-2011, 09:53 PM

I had a call this Thursday from a person whose shows I used to film, saying that the student they was using had let them down (cold feet) and could I could help them out. First I thought oh work , then I thought bloody cheek, cannot be bothered to use my pro service (for all this time) and then coming to me to help them out at the last moment, so I said no I could not. (even though I could have)

**TimStannard** · 07-01-2011, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by ajm

I could do that then class myself as an amateur and not the professional i actually am.

I hope you don't. You'll give us amateurs a bad name.

**TimStannard** · 07-01-2011, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Z Cheema

I had a call this Thursday from a person whose shows I used to film, saying that the student they was using had let them down (cold feet) and could I could help them out. First I thought oh work , then I thought bloody cheek, cannot be bothered to use my pro service (for all this time) and then coming to me to help them out at the last moment, so I said no I could not. (even though I could have)

The thing is, whilst that might make you feel good and superior (a) they just think you're too busy and can't do the gig and (b) you haven't got the work - which is fine if you've got alternative work lined up.

I'm not in this line of business, but I am self employed so I do have a valid view. I'd have taken the work (and charged a bit of a premium). This would not only have made them feel much more embarrassed, but also would have made the realise what a damn fine chap you are.

**Thurston Lang** · 07-02-2011, 01:45 PM

For what it's worth..... i'd have taken the money too......... For them it was all about money so it wasn't personal, therefore you simply throw the same ethos back at them.
You forget any favours or extras ... you simply charge healthy rate.

BTW - coming back to one of Tim's points about the original fete issue that started this thread..... do the organisers not realise that if (for whatever reason) someone trips on a cable or falls on a tripod etc. then all someone has to do is go to somewhere like claims direct and they have a pretty good case for extracting some £.
If the camera guy has third party liability (as they ought to) then no problem... it should cover this eventuality.
If they don't ..then the first the camera guy and then the organisers themselves are slap in the legal firing line....

Any claim for injury or loss of earnings can be heeeeefty.

Maybe they should think about that over a cup of tea when saving themselves £500.
That is.... not a claim for bad work by them against the videographer .... but a claim against them for damages and personal injury/loss of earnings.

Ps - I do speak as a qualified lawyer.

Who's to say these cheap guys aren't insured..... but somehow i doubt it.
And if organisers employ uninsured companies or individuals to do work.... then more fool them, the sums of money involved could strip them personally.