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Thread: DVD vs. BlueRay

  1. #1

    Question DVD vs. BlueRay

    So I have some questions about creating a semi-pro looking DVD/BlueRay

    When I put this on DVD I don't know what to do. It probably will not all fit on a normal DVD without compression so is that why BlueRay disks "look better" they can fit uncompressed files on them? I might duplicate both DVD and BlueRay. But I've shot all my footage in 29.970i but I need to return for some interviews and slow motion shots like sitting interviews which I was thinking on shooting them in 24p.

    Then I would be stuck with a time line with both 23.970P and 29.970i shots and have to choose what to render. If I downrender it to 24p than I will loose speedy shots frames taken in 30i. If I uprender it to 30i than I loose the true 24p right? That's the REAL question because how many frames per second will the dvd player read and display anyway?

    Can you even put a true 1920x1080 video on a DVD or "HDDVD"? Plus I don't think you can put a 24p video on a dvd correct? and do normal DVD players read any DVDs higher than DVD5?
    Why am I an editor? ...because I'm a bad filmer!
    ☮ ♫ ☾ ☆ ☼ ☯ ~ Live Long & Prosper

  2. #2
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    it would appear that you have no idea what the difference between a DVD and a blu-ray disk actually is. You even got the name wrong. It's BLU ray and not BLUE ray.

    In simple terms, they are both disks of the same physical dimensions. However, a DVD-5 (a single layer disk) will hold about 4.7Gb of information. a DVD-9 (dual layer) will hold nearly double that. Single layer blu-rays are currently 25Gb I think. 50Gb for dual layer.

    In terms of video, it;s not a question of compression at all. A typical blu-ray movie disk will contain what's laughingly referred to as a 'full HD' movie. That means a frame size of 1920x1080 running at 50 full frames per second (for us Brits anyway). A DVD movie disk will contain a video image size much smaller than that (I can never remember the exact numbers) but it's an image of about 720*576. So the picture size is actually much smaller and so each frame of the movie takes up less space on the disk. And it;s doesn;t stop there. for a DVD the image is typically interlaced too. That means that each of the 50 frames per second actually onlyu contains every other line oif picture.

    DVD players absolutely WILL read a DVD higher than DVD-5. I have a c ouple fo DVD-18 somewhere. Dual layer AND dual sided

    be careful of quoting a frame rate of 29.970 as well., That's rounded up and very wrong. Type that into a video editor and you will mess things up. Iyt's been known!

    I'm not an expoert on frame rate conversions as I never do it. I shoot what I author my disks in.

  3. #3

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    @ Alan- Thanks, yea since then I have figured most this stuff out.

    DVD- MPEG-2 UP TO:

    720 576 @ 25fps

    720 480 @ 29.97 or 23.976

    Wiki says "DVD Video" is up to 8.5gb (which is DVD-9) so thanks for confirming that all DVD players read dual layer disks!

    What do you mean 29.970 is rounded up?? I thought 30fps is what 29.970 is rounded DOWN from?
    Why am I an editor? ...because I'm a bad filmer!
    ☮ ♫ ☾ ☆ ☼ ☯ ~ Live Long & Prosper

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkFloydEffect View Post
    @ Alan- Thanks, yea since then I have figured most this stuff out.

    DVD- MPEG-2 UP TO:

    720 576 @ 25fps

    720 480 @ 29.97 or 23.976

    Wiki says "DVD Video" is up to 8.5gb (which is DVD-9) so thanks for confirming that all DVD players read dual layer disks!

    What do you mean 29.970 is rounded up?? I thought 30fps is what 29.970 is rounded DOWN from?
    I don;t live in NTSC land but I know 29.970 is a rounded figure and can cause problems in the right (or should that be wrong?) place. I think the REAL figure is 29.967fps.

    Remember though, these disks are just data storage. For playing video they just have a certain folder structure on them with files in of a certain type. It's all just data. DVD originally stood for Digital Video Disk. When someone realised it was a just data and could obviously be used for thigns other than movies the name suddenly changed overnight to Digital Versatile Disk. DVD-9's as you say hold about 8.5GB. Single layer blu-rays hold 25Gb. Dunno what's coming next but I'll bet it;s a treat!!!

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Mills View Post
    I don;t live in NTSC land but I know 29.970 is a rounded figure and can cause problems in the right (or should that be wrong?) place. I think the REAL figure is 29.967fps.

    Remember though, these disks are just data storage. For playing video they just have a certain folder structure on them with files in of a certain type. It's all just data. DVD originally stood for Digital Video Disk. When someone realised it was a just data and could obviously be used for thigns other than movies the name suddenly changed overnight to Digital Versatile Disk. DVD-9's as you say hold about 8.5GB. Single layer blu-rays hold 25Gb. Dunno what's coming next but I'll bet it;s a treat!!!
    Yeah that sounds about right, or 29.976 I don't know.

    So do you think most Hollywood quality DVDs were or are produced on DVD-9 to prevent additional compression? Or are they just realllly good with the compression.
    Why am I an editor? ...because I'm a bad filmer!
    ☮ ♫ ☾ ☆ ☼ ☯ ~ Live Long & Prosper

  6. #6
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    Very rarely is a hollowood movie produced on a DVD 5 anymore. They get good compression but even then they normally need two layers making the disk a 'flipper'. Personally I always refused to buy a flipper i.e. turn the disk over halfway through the movie.

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Mills View Post
    Very rarely is a hollowood movie produced on a DVD 5 anymore. They get good compression but even then they normally need two layers making the disk a 'flipper'. Personally I always refused to buy a flipper i.e. turn the disk over halfway through the movie.
    Um...don;t confuse dual-layer with dual-sided.

    There are two types of DVD formats. DVD-5 and DVD-9. A DVD-5 is a single layer disc, marketed at 4.7GB, but only holds 4485MB max. A DVD-9 is a dual-layer disc, marketed at 8.5GB, and holds a little less than double a DVD-5. Both DVDs are still SINGLE-sided. The ONLY dual-sided DVDs that Hollywood ever produced were ones that had the Widescreen (16:9) version on one side, and the Standard (4:3) on the other. Hollywood has never produce dual-sided (flip to watch) movies EVER. If you have ever had to flip the DVD to watch both sides, then you got a bootleg, which would be hard to believe since they never sold dual-sided burnable DVDs to the public.

    I know this is an old thread, but I just could not let that comment go. How do you become a 'Super Moderator' on a DVD forum with over 5,000 posts and say something like that?
    Last edited by crobs909; 03-12-2010 at 04:30 AM.

  8. #8

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    Hey thanks for the info! This is still an ongoing thing for me anyway
    Why am I an editor? ...because I'm a bad filmer!
    ☮ ♫ ☾ ☆ ☼ ☯ ~ Live Long & Prosper

  9. Default DVD and Blu-Ray Format Clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkFloydEffect View Post
    Hey thanks for the info! This is still an ongoing thing for me anyway
    To answer your original question, in a more thorough manner....

    Standard Definition discs (2 types)...

    • DVD-5 = recorded on a single-layer DVD-R (4.7GB) - contains DVD disc structure*, can hold 1hr @ 8Mbps MPEG-II
    • DVD-9 = recorded on a dual-layer DVD-R (8.5 GB) - contains DVD disc structure*, can hold 2hrs @ 8Mbps MPEG-II

    8Mbps is the highest bitrate a DVD should be encoded at. It can technically go up to 9.2Mbps, but there is no difference in visual quality between 8Mbps and 9.2Mbps in MPEG-II format.

    NOTE: ALL Standard Definition DVDs MUST use MPEG-II. Blu-Ray can use multiple types of encoding: MPEG-II, H.264 or VC-1.

    NOTE: Also, these can be 24fps or 29.97fps, as well as progressive or interlaced. If your course material is 29.97i, then your final DVD should be encoded in 29.97i. Some cameras can shoot in 60i, (which can be converted to 29.97p when you output to DVD if you wish.) ALL DVDs are 720x480 in the NTSC world.

    High Definition discs (4 types)...

    • BD-50 = recorded on a BD-R/RW (50GB) - contains Blu-Ray format files**, can hold 2 hours at 25-30Mbps in MPEG-II or H.264
    • BD-25 = recorded on a BD-R/RW (25GB) - contains Blu-Ray format files**, can hold 1 hours at 25-30Mbps in MPEG-II or H.264
    • BD-9 = recorded on a dual-layer DVD-R (8.5GB) - contains DVD disc structure*, using programs like "BD Rebuilder" you can create what are called AVCHD DVD discs (Blu-Ray high-def content on a DVD-R disc, but it is very compressed, down to about 6-8Mbps, and the audio is usually not HD, but usually down-converted to AC3 to fit)
    • BD-5 = recorded on a single-layer DVD-R (4.7GB) - contains DVD disc structure*, same description as a BD-9 except smaller in size, thus higher compression/lower bitrates; about 4-6Mbps.

    Blu-Ray discs are ALL either 1280x720 or 1920x1080.

    Key:
    * = DVD format files consist of a "VIDEO_TS" and "AUDIO_TS" folder in the root of the disc, where the "AUDIO_TS" folder is empty, and the "VIDEO_TS" folder contains *.ifo, *.vob and *.bup files

    ** = Blu-Ray format files consist of "BDMV" and "CERTIFICATE" folders in the root of the disc. The "BDMV" folder contains a subfolder called "STREAM", which contains *.m2ts file(s).

    NOTE (regarding H.264 vs MPEG-II): If you are encoding a Blu-Ray formatted disc (on BD or DVD) and using H.264, you can generally follow the rule that half the bitrate will look just as good a double on MPEG-II (in other words, 10MBps in H.264 will look as good visually as 20Mbps in MPEG-II).

    NOTE (regarding BD-5 and BD-9 discs):
    you cannot make a BD-5 or BD-9 disc in MPEG-II format unless the clip on the disc is really short, like 30 minutes or less - you must use H.264 encoding (used by default in "BD Rebuilder") to be able to fit a whole movie into the limited space provided by DVD-Rs

    NOTE (regarding the HD-DVD format): There is no such thing as "HD-DVD" anymore. The two competing formats were Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, and Blu-Ray won out. Professional HD-DVDs are not even produced anymore, which is good because they were an inferior format compared to Blu-Ray.

    ==

    Now, that all the technical information is out of the way, I can tell you what I do. I do not want to use my actual Blu-Ray discs over and over, getting them all scratched up, so what I do is I back them all up to DVD-Rs (they still maintain their full 1080p quality because I make them into BD-9 discs). It is very nice since DVD-Rs are so cheap these days, that I can create HD/1080p backups of my Blu-Ray discs on cheap DVD-R media, and they play just fine in any Blu-Ray player. The only thing I lose is the HD audio, which is converted to 6-channel AC3 @ 448Kbps (which is high enough quality for my ears).

    Now, with that said - it is illegal to do this with rental Blu-Ray discs or borrowed discs; I only do this with ones I own.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by crobs909; 03-12-2010 at 03:43 PM.

  10. #10

    Talking Awesome!

    That was some intense help very solid!

    With all that in mind I will produce two versions of the movie.

    One on a BD-50 (if it will not fit uncompressed on a BD-25) and the other on a DVD-9 (assuming that BD-9 is unplayable on a standard DVD player?)

    Now with that part out of the way, my camera records in .m2ts with a file system on the SD card containing a STREAM folder with .m2ts files (just like a Blu-Ray disk)

    Going from that to the disks is the next battle. Aren't .m2ts files just MPEG containers? So I should stick with MPEG-II for both DVD-9 and BD-50?

    Keep in mind that my goal is to loose nothing, absolutely no compression (BD-50) and minimal as possible with the DVD-9.
    Why am I an editor? ...because I'm a bad filmer!
    ☮ ♫ ☾ ☆ ☼ ☯ ~ Live Long & Prosper

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