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Thread: Rendering advice for Vegas Pro 8

  1. Default Rendering advice for Vegas Pro 8

    Can anyone help?

    I'm probably missing something obvious here but....I've been going round in circles and need a bit of support to work out where I'm going wrong?

    I'm using Vegas Pro 8, on a 3Ghz PC with 1.5GB memory runing XP.

    I'm editing a HDV 1080-50i (1440x1080, 25.000 fps) file from a Sony HVR-HD1000E

    I've set the project properties up as follows:-
    • Matched the media format
    • 8bit pixel format
    • Best (Rendering Quality)
    • Gaussion (motion blur)
    • Interpolate Field (deinterlace method)
    My question is : - I want to get the smoothest rendered output possible before I put the video through On2 Flix Pro to convert to .FLV

    I produce a lot of videos tours for Hotels/Estate agents etc... which all have Pans leading into transitions followed by zooms into statics (and so on and so on etc...).

    With this in mind is there a file type & template that you would recommend i should be using to gain the smoothest rendered output possible.

    Basically, I'm currently getting very slight jittery/jumpy pans on all of the videos I'm rendering, which are then being emphasized in the On2 FLV conversion so I need to try and find a way to get rid of them.

    (PS. And just so you know, the slight jumpy movement wasn't in the pans on the original footage)

    Also:- I've been sat systematically going through the various file types and templates trying to find ones give the best rendered output possible and I've got to the point where I thought it might just be easier to ask if anyone else know the answer and has been through the same process.

    To be honest the best output I can find with the least jumpy/jittery pans has been achieved using: -
    • Save file type as - Video for Windows (*.avi)
    • Template - PAL DV Widescreen
    with Custom settings :-
      • Video Render Quality = BEST
      • Field Order = Lower field first
      • Video format = PAL DV Widescreen
      • Interleave every frame = turned on
      • Create an openDMl File (AVI version 2.0) Compatible file = turned on

    What do you guys do/suggest?

    Cheers

    Jon
    Last edited by JonVisuallink1; 10-12-2009 at 01:29 PM.

  2. Default

    Jon,

    Have you explored the mpeg avenue at all?

    I do very similar work to that which you describe (dynamic camera work compliled with stills etc.) and have found the mpeg HD templates work very effectively (using Premiere Pro though NOT Vegas).

    The settings you list for the custom .avi setup do seem about right, how long are the videos? .avi creaes extremely large files when uncompressed and while this may not be the cause of your problem - it may well be a contributing factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ricktks@googlemail.com View Post
    The settings you list for the custom .avi setup do seem about right, how long are the videos? .avi creaes extremely large files when uncompressed and while this may not be the cause of your problem - it may well be a contributing factor.
    PAL DV avi files (the type Jon is creating) are NOT uncompressed, though they are still pretty large (approx 13GB per hour)

    Jon - one source here who ran a number of tests recommended creating 1280x720 WMV at 3Mbps for YouTube. Of course YT may use different software/algorythms for creating its FLVs.

    If you're feeling flush, you could buy Sorensen Squeeze - the industry standard for creating FLVs and this will give you total control.
    Tim

  4. Default

    Tim,

    I've actually managed to resolve the issue via a really weird route, and I'd appreciate your thoughts about why this has worked .....cause I'm really confused

    Initially I set the project properties up as follows:-

    Template = match the media format ...of the captured video (i.e in this case HDV 1080 50i (1440x1080 25fps).

    Then after I'd edited the video and just before I rendered ...I changed the project properties to...
    • Template = Custom (720 x 576 50fps)
    Note:- to change the above I set the Frame rate = '50,000 (Double PAL)'
    • Aspect ratio = 1.4568 (PAL DV Widescreen)
    • Make sure the other project properties are as below
    • Field Order = Upper filed first
    • Output Rotation = 0' (Original)
    • Width = 720
    • Height = 520
    • Pixel format = 8bit
    • Rendering Quality = Best
    • Motion blur = Gaussion
    • Deinterlace method = Interpolate Field
    Then selected 'Render As...' and used the following settings
    • Save file type as - Video for Windows (*.avi)
    • Template = NTSC DV Widescreen
    Clicked on 'Custom' next to the template, and used the following settings :-
    • Video Render Quality = BEST
    • Frame Rate = 29.970 (NTSC)
    • Field Order = Lower field first
    • Video format = NTSC DV Widescreen
    • Interleave every frame = turned on
    • Create an openDMl File (AVI version 2.0) Compatible file = turned on .

    This completely resolved the jumpy/jittery pan & zoom issue with the rendered video now running 100% smooth when played on Nero Showtime or the Media Player. Thus meaning that I can now put it into On2 (or Soreenson!) to get the best results possible on the .FLV.

    This is where I'm confused!

    The above sort of implies that the 1080 50i captured footage converts better to NTSC than to PAL ...In fact, like a sad git I even went back to test this theory and set the 'Render As' settings to PAL DV widescreen with 25 frames a second, just to see what would happen .....and I got the very slight jumping/and jittering back in all the pans and zooms again.

    I've always been told that 1080 50i captured footage (on Vegas fron the camera direct and at HDV setting) will render out to NTSC or PAL .....and due to the algorithms used in the editing packages (Vegas Pro I should see the same results on both (i.e smooth pans and zooms), but I don't, which sort of implies from the above that the jittering is due to the missing 4.970 frames per second when I render to PAL widescreen.

    Is this the case? ....and should I render anything for the web using NTSC settings from now on?

  5. Default

    Tim,

    Thanks for the idea about using WMV at the settings highlighted.

    I've run some tests and this alternative is working out really well, I'm getting really smooth pans & zooms on the rendered video now (without having to do much tweeking on the variables).

    Plus the On2 conversion to FLV is obviously less time consuming now due to the reduced WMV filesize.

    Cheers

    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonVisuallink1 View Post
    I've always been told that 1080 50i captured footage (on Vegas fron the camera direct and at HDV setting) will render out to NTSC or PAL .....and due to the algorithms used in the editing packages (Vegas Pro I should see the same results on both (i.e smooth pans and zooms), but I don't, which sort of implies from the above that the jittering is due to the missing 4.970 frames per second when I render to PAL widescreen.
    Hi Jon,

    May I first make clear that I do not really understand this stuff. I tend to go with what works (based on a combination of trial and error and what I've learned from otheres) and maybe after a year or so the occasional penny drops. Therefore PLEASE do not take anything as I say as gospel. So,

    As I understand it...

    If everything is working OK then if you take the same piece of footage and render to PAL or NTSC, it should display correctly on the correct device: eg PAL on a PAL TV, NTSC on an NTSC TV. If you are playing back on a PC (or into another pice of software) the playback does rather depend on how well that playback software deals with NTSC.

    The second part of your statement I've quoted has me a bit flummoxed. If you're going from 50i which is 25fps to PAL which is also 25fps it seems illogical that it would go "via" and intermediate 29.97 fps. However, I have to agree that the problem you describe sounds very much like footage I've seen shot at 30fps converted by dropping every 6th rame to 25fps. (Note that wasn't NTSC but a quicktime 30fps "HD" film from a Panasonic TZ7(?))

    This whole thing does rather beg the question why are you creating an avi/wmv whatever? Why not render your output file the same format as your source media (50i 1440x1080)? Surely this would result in less conversion. Is it because On2 doesn't accept this as input?

    Quite apart from the theory, well done from sticking at this and posting your results. It sounds like you've got a workable solution and others will, I'm sure, benefit from your experience.

    And I'm glad the wmv settings I suggested (courtesey Mark W) also seem to give workable results.
    Tim

  7. Default

    "Is it because On2 doesn't accept this as input?"

    Firstly, thanks for the response, when it comes to rendering it's not the easiest process to work out for yourself via trial and error ....especially as it doesn't necessarily follow a common sense approach. And you've confirmed that I was sort of on the right track with my assumption.

    To answer the question above: No, On2 accepts HDV 1080 50i ...and I have been (up to now on Vegas) rendering out the videos at this resolution, but I wanted to try and iron out the jittery movement in the pans on the videos I was putting up on the web.

    I understand the bit rate issues with web video, so I knew I couldn't increase this or some viewers could be waiting for the videos to load, ...so my train of thought was to get the basic Vegas rendered video as smooth as possible as it might enhance the product kicked out of On2 (or Soreenson) and the videos on the web.

    Unfortunatly, with all the colour enhancements and titles I'd added (and some software based zooms to keep the motion going, sorry I know I shouldn't do that) it meant that after rendering at 1080 the output had slight jumps and bumps. which I can understand as I'm asking a lot to of Vegas (I think) to kick something out thats at the same resolution and smoothness as before with all the effects in there.

    Hence the common sense approach (In my head) was to convert down to DV widescreen, ....but still to the highest quality possible ....which is why I was going for avi. Which was when my problems started!

    Anyway, I think I'm almost there as the rendered video is increadibly smooth now, I've still got jumps in the pans on the web, but I don't think I can do much about them unless I increase the bit rate.

    Take a look at the video online and let me know what you think if you get a chance.

    Visual Link - Hele Valley Main Video 1B

    For this version I used the WMV conversion you suggested and then ran it through On2 at 1mbps (I'm trying to make sure I cater for most peoples broadband speed)

    Thanks again

    Jon

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    Yes there was some jerkiness to be seen, but to be honest, I doubt I'd have noticed if I wasn't specifically looking for it. In comparison to most vids on the net (and I don't mean YouTube type vids) it's very smooth indeed. Job well done.
    That's not to say you shouldn't give up striving for perfection, just that I don't really expect your client to complain. The video looks very good indeed. Very slick and i didn't even mind all those dissolves!

    I realise you didn't post here for a critique but three things stood out as needing correction. Bear in mind I was watching for jitter and jerkiness in pans and not concentrating on content so they really DID jump out at me (on first viewing):
    1. The shot at 0:26 and 1:35 is identical (it's amazing how visual memory will retain these things)
    2. "Luxurious Private Spa's" - the apostrophe is wrong. I know Spas looks wrong, but spa is a word in itself, so you can't even get away with the old excuse the apostrophe is there because it's an abbreviation.
    3. Do you realy mean "Completed with its own shop"?
    Tim

  9. Default

    Tim,

    Many thanks for the feedback and my apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

    Yep, they're all really good points. I knew about two of them (The same image being shown twice, and the "Completed" bit). I actually missed the Spa's mistake, so I'm pleased you highlighted that one for me.

    Just so you know it's a draft version that the client's using to fine tune for the final version (and supply me with their wording), hence why I let the two I knew about go through.

    Thanks for all the help and I'll make sure I post anything I think that might be of use in the future.

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