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Thread: When HD is needed?

  1. #1

    Default When HD is needed?

    Hi!

    I have filmed footage in 1080i using a Sony V1. The final edited film will be on a DVD to be used by a school to play on a monitor of some sort. It wont be more than 10 minutes long I guess. The problem is that I do not know what kind of monitor the film will be played back on.

    Because of this I have decided to cover my self by editing the film in HD using Vegas Pro.

    What size/ type of output monitor really demands HD? In other words, when does DV image quality visibly deteriorate? Maybe I am being too cautious doing all in HD?

    I imagine there are articles on this forum on optimising final rendering of film for different mediums such as web/ tv/ larger screens etc?


    Rgds
    Malcolm

  2. #2
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    No need to do HDV ( HD is something much better) - the thing that determines the quality in this case is the weakest link in the chain - the dvd player.

    This will 99% be a ordinary player with all that implys for quality - mpeg 2, 6mbit compression and standard res.

    I find editing HD footage a real pain. Save yourself some hassle and down convert all the footage to SD DV and edit that to produce the DVD.

    There really is very little point in doing stuff in hdv at present, the distribution oppertunities beyond front rooms equipped with blu ray players and decent screens are tiny - and how many peeps have blu ray players and decent screens? And how many film makers can cut blu ray discs, or afford to ?

    The V1 is a great camera and will likely shoot sd dv that is only slightly different to HDV.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark W View Post
    No need to do HDV ( HD is something much better) - the thing that determines the quality in this case is the weakest link in the chain - the dvd player.

    This will 99% be a ordinary player with all that implys for quality - mpeg 2, 6mbit compression and standard res.

    I find editing HD footage a real pain. Save yourself some hassle and down convert all the footage to SD DV and edit that to produce the DVD.

    There really is very little point in doing stuff in hdv at present, the distribution oppertunities beyond front rooms equipped with blu ray players and decent screens are tiny - and how many peeps have blu ray players and decent screens? And how many film makers can cut blu ray discs, or afford to ?

    The V1 is a great camera and will likely shoot sd dv that is only slightly different to HDV.
    Yes, sorry. HDV on V1 is not as good as true HD?

    I didnt think of the DVD Player. Is MPEG2 the way to go then?

    I was hiring the V1. I hope I can down convert using Vegas ???

    Whats the biggest screen/ screen resolution that is OK with SD DV? Is this an erroneous question? Does a 1080 film frame take up 1080 pixels on screen, so if film viewed on screen with millions of pixels, film looks small anyway?


    So many questions!

    Thank you for taking time out for this amateur

    Malcolm

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    Depending on your pc and how complex the video it may be easiest to edit the HDV footage, and then just render it as SD using a dvd mpeg 2 template.

    HDV is a consumer format, it appears to have been formualted for pixel whores ( no offence )

    People are sold by the pixel count but the data rate of HDV is actually LESS then DV and in many applications this can become the factor that dominates picture quality.

    HD uses a less complex and more 'editable' data structure more durable and uses bit rates as high as 400 mb/s - HDV is only 17.

    Many considor this a triumph of marketing over sense and consequently HDV hasnt really taken off amongst professional users and manufacturers are producing 'prosumer' cameras that record at higher bit rates to adress this.

    Sadly many so called hdv cameras lack the optivcs, block and decent electronics to even take advantage of HDV and produce outpuit no better than SD DV.

    IMHO something like the v1 is needed to exploit the potential advantages of the HDV format over DV.

  5. #5

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    I found this thread which I think answers my question about down converting in Vegas. It sounds like it was a good job I did not down convert on camera using firewire. For some reason you get better results by d/ converting in post, or by using analog component or SDI

    HD to SD Downconvert process - The Digital Video Information Network

    Malcolm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark W View Post
    Save yourself some hassle and down convert all the footage to SD DV and edit that to produce the DVD.
    Respectfully, I would disagree with that statement. On a 'plain vanilla' edittign station it's certainly true, but with the right system it's no trouble at all and from the tests I've made personally I prefer the picture quality when I capture HDV from my Sony FX1, edit in HDV and then export out as MPEG2 for DVD production.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mark W View Post
    and how many peeps have blu ray players and decent screens? .
    I do! Cost is a significant factor and I won't be cutting blu-rays disks for personal use until they are more affordable. But at least I have my HDV projects so all that's needed is a new export when I do want blu-ray.

    in the meantime I export M2T files and send them to my TV. Not quite the same as they are only mbps bitrate but it beats SD hands down on my PS3.

    Just my 2p

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    Lock and load !

    The way I work ( and I dont have a q core yet I admit) editing hdv footage is just a crawl - my middle name is 'gaussian blur -chromakey - color correct - sharpen - radial blur - motion blur -40 tracks ' - I found the time penalties incurred with hdv and th eslug like timeline made it undeitable in fx heavy projects.

    That was the context of my reply.

    As for hardware - still rare.

    As for cameras and hdv I still maintain that it is a half arsed concept deisgned to shift boxes, but having said that in my small expirience of these things the FX1 and similar do exploit the pixels available - anything less wont be better than same spec DV.

    And when the action is fast moving I think DV can look better.

    It cracks me up when people ask me if the ouput from my jvc is hdv - it aint, but there again new 2 years ago it was £7000 - so it should be good !

  8. #8

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    Well, I have found myself with 5 hours of HDV m2t files to edit in Vegas, which I will then export to MPEG2 for DVD

    But....

    I am looking at chroma keying. The footage is of a building site (the new school being built), and I would like to take footage of a woman presenter in studio to overlay onto the building site as if she is there on site.

    I read Alan Mills post and thought, yeah, I warm to idea that I have a HDV original I can export in future in format superior to mpg2 (especially since this is a presentation the scool might liekt o show on big screen one day), and then I read Marks reply about playing with HDV/ chroma keying and also wondered about my PC spec. Apart from taking a long time to load up the project files Ive not encountered any problems as yet. Please tell me, what kind of editing really hogs CPU bandwith? Things like chroma keying in particular? Or just a bundle of effects which MArk seems to work with loads?

    This PC is 2.5 yrs old. Its Athlon 64 3000+ . It supports Dual channel but I know the CPU is Single CHannel 1.8MHz. 1Gb RAM. 256K Shared Video Adapter. My gut feeling is that Im on the edge with this spec for HDV editing. I am open to upgrading the PC and am interested to know what would do the job without going overboard.

    Thanks
    Malc
    Last edited by KingOfCups; 07-03-2008 at 10:08 AM.

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    I just feel I want to add one last thing here withou getting into an HDV vs SD argument.

    I hav a four year old P4 3Ghz PC with 2GB of cheapish RAM. I like the extra pixels (if that's how we want to refer to it) that I get from my HDV camera. I always edit HDV and can get a 25mbps result from it when mastering to blu-ray. The image quality is much superior to any SD disks I've ever produced. For me the resutls speak for themselves. I'm not pretending I get the same image quality as I see when I watch Casino Royale in blu-ray but then my productions cost five-bob tomake and not 100 million....

    What's more, I spent a few quid on a plugin for Premiere Pro and even on this old system I can edit, scrub and add a few effects and work in REAL-TIME.

    I do not edit M2T files but have an intermediate codec which allows me to edit an uncompressed AVI file. Disk space (45Gb per hour of footage) is my only bug-bear.

    Never had an issue with chroma key (done in After Effect v7 using Keylight plugin).

    Horses for courses. I like HDV and will stick with it until I can afford soemthing better that record full HD.

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