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Thread: Hal Ketchum "Live in Concert"

  1. #1

    Default Hal Ketchum "Live in Concert"

    OK then, here goes, this is the "encore" footage taken from our most recent concert shoot.

    http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...&q=hal+ketchum

    hopefully the link will work.

    Concerts are a bit like weddings I've discovered....get a bit wrong and you can't ask them to perform the ceremony again and secondly, when someone is is responsible for the FOH mix and feeds you....if they forget to push up a fader....no one (audience included) gets to hear it.... we were unfortunately hindered a bit by camera positions.....theatres don't like you setting up in the best seats or where someone is likely to fall over you

    any constructive criticism welcome....we are all continually learning....

  2. #2
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    A nice start but you've got a long learning curve in front of you. There are a fair few criticisms, meant positively.


    Okay, now to do my Craig Revel Horwood impersonation...

    The camerawork was very weak, wobbly unsure zooms and picture composition, feet cut off in long shots, performers slap in the middle of frame and occasionally too much headroom on the close shots. Also a fair bit of "correcting". Either follow the performer (best) or leave it locked off (not good) but don't move it a bit, leave it, zoom a bit, leave it, move a bit....
    It started off very weakly, the lead singer was cut for far too long. At events like this it's good to decide to sacrifice one song and just use it to get a load of shots of the audience. These can be inserted when you find yourself without a shot from any of the cameras.
    Then came the solos and it started to go wrong. When the lead's singing you need to see him, not the rhythm guitar strumming. For the keyboards solo, you need to see the keyboardist, for the guitar solo, the guitarist, and so on. You managed to miss all of them!
    Once the song got into it's stride your cameramen and cutting improved considerably but you need to give your camera operators guidelines on what you want. I'm assuming that you had two cameras, which is too few. To cover this sort of thing, three is the absolute minimim.

    Apart from that, a nice start, just keep going and be hyper-critical about your own work. It's easy for me to comment, sitting comfortably in front of my computer, I realise that it's a lot harder to do than it seems at first glance. My criticisms may seem a lot but you're out there doing it, not just talking about doing it, so thumbs up to you Torby!

    Edit: I appreciate the problems you had with the theatre, as you progess and prove yourself, you should find that the theatre management become more positive towards you, especially if you can offer them an incentive... A copy of the DVD for example (not on this occasion though, never show work which is sub-standard).
    Last edited by Rembrandt Rob; 03-17-2007 at 08:42 PM.

  3. #3

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    Hi there Guru, criticism when it comes from most of the regulars on this forum Andy , Irish Mark Alan and especially yourself IS most welcome. All too often its easy to sit people down in front of the DVD (and we have done) and when they watch is ask for reactions.....most to date have been along the lines of...." Its just like watching a concert on TV"......unfortunately people don't watch it with a videographers eye.....thats why input from someone like yourself is brilliant.

    As regards the framing of shots in particular, we recognise what you have said and unfortunately the "edits" are sometimes based on best "available" shot not most "appropriate" shot....if that makes sense. The theatre layout meant we were quite a bit away from the action...in most cases the closeups were as close as we could get.

    A big problem for us is what the other is doing (we had 4 cameras on the shoot, 2 locked off and only the 2 of us filming) we really need ( I think) some means of communicating between operators, mic and headphones, so we make sure someone has a shot.

    Perhaps it wasn't the best clip to "showcase", it was the encore and even the sound engineer got caught out and didn't have the guitar "up" in the mix in the first song. The other 15 songs in the main part of the gig did go well, cuts to solos, harmony singer parts, band introductions etc having said that, it doesn't excuse the faux-pas on the encore footage.

    We seem to have found a bit of a niche here as the only other companies we can find in our neck of the woods either make TV adverts (very expensive!) short programs or series for mainstream TV (very expensive) or wedding videographers (different kettle of fish) no one seems to be working in the music side of things, so we will learn, especially if we can get good feedback (and by that I mean critical analysis from groups like this forum) and we will get better....but most of all....we will stick at it and grow....


    Thanks again Guru....this is what this forum is for....
    Last edited by torby; 03-18-2007 at 11:52 AM.

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    The real expert on this sort of thing is Turnmedia but I've also made a fair few of these type of videos (on the side mainly) to earn a bit of cash.

    My suggestions, from my experience are...

    You need three manned cameras. You can have one additional "locked-off" giving a long shot of the stage, for those times when none of the other cameras offers anything worthwhile but the three other cameras must have operators.
    Brief everybody before the show and let them know what you want. To start with I found that having one camera dedicated to the lead singer, another just on the instruments and the third to go fishing, worked very well. If you can, then it's worth having a director with radio comms to the camera operators. A cheap set can be bought on ebay, all you need is the director able to transmit and the cameramen to listen on headphones.

    Make sure that your camera operators are aware of what you want. Inexperienced operators often "cut" the shot too soon and they need to be told to go in close, keep it steady and add a few seconds at the end of every set-up to allow the editor a bit of room before re-framing. You'll also need to get them to feel the music, so that they don't reframe in the middle of a phrase or reposition halfway through their instrument's solo.

    Good luck, hope you make it.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Guru View Post
    The real expert on this sort of thing is Turnmedia but I've also made a fair few of these type of videos (on the side mainly) to earn a bit of cash.

    My suggestions, from my experience are...

    keep it steady and add a few seconds at the end of every set-up to allow the editor a bit of room before re-framing. You'll also need to get them to feel the music, so that they don't reframe in the middle of a phrase or reposition halfway through their instrument's solo.

    Good luck, hope you make it.
    Like the suggestion of a few seconds either side....that makes sense...glad I came here now, I must go and have a look at some of the stuff on the Turnmedia site, from memory there was quite a bit of footage to watch...


    Thanks again

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    Here's a clip which you might be interested in...

    It's actually classical music and I picked it for two reasons, firstly the music doesn't have a strong beat, so you can see how the visuals work and secondly the story behind the recording illustrates a point.
    Due to a feck up the three cameras unexpectedly arrived (with operators) just as the programme was starting and this clip is the first number. The first camera set up quickly and started recording a long shot, camera 2 picked a position slightly more to the side and set up whilst the third man quickly plugged a Marantz PMD660 recorder into the location's mixer before rushing to get his camera into a position and recording.

    You can see how the start of the concert is a bit "messy" and the gaps were filled with audience shots taken much later during a break in the music. There had been not time for any camera rehearsals or briefing but all three camera operators knew what was expected. The close ups are right at the far end of the zoom not normally where you want to go, but the closeness adds to the atmosphere. There was no communication between the operators but they still managed to capture (most of) the soloists. Bearing in mind that all of us were trying to regain our breath without gasping and coughing during the quiet concert, it took a couple of minutes to settle down and for camera 3 to get online.

    Once concentration had returned you can still see that occasionally two cameras offered the same shot, due to a lack of comms (since the concert started an hour earlier than we thought, the radios were still in the car). When you're recording it's worth glancing at the other cameras to get an idea of what they're doing. This doesn't mean that you must be pointing in opposite directions! It's often good to be both on the same musician, as long as you don't have the identical shot.

    During the editing, at first it was a case of working with material which we had (same as you) before the cameras settled and offered choice... The later material was much more in line with how it should be on a performance shoot. You need to tell your camera operators to get in close, to the far end of the zoom if need be and constantly look for new angles. In this video there are a couple of bits which seem to drag, mainly because of the lack of visual variation.
    (incidentally it wasn't used in this form for the final DVD, we covered up the slow parts by inserting interviews over them.)

    Last edited by Rembrandt Rob; 03-18-2007 at 07:44 PM.

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